About indiscipline amongst students, much may be done by diverting the attention of our college and university students to other activities. But unless the social atmosphere improves, I do not think much improvement is going to take place. The elders are setting such a bad example before the youth that I do not think we can blame them. It is a very serious matter and we have to took within ourselves to find out why this is happening and what the remedies may be. It is good that you are thinking of appointing a committee to find out the remedies. It should consider all the aspects of the problem and suggest proper remedies.

Our state has already adopted the three-language formula. Along with the mother-tongue, Hindi is compulsory from Standard V. From Standard VIII, English is compulsory. In this way, we have- implemented the three-language formula completely. We also start the study of English on voluntary basis from Standard V.

We also provide schools for minorities. In Ahmedabad, there, are people who speak Telugu, Malayalam, etc. For them, schools are run by the local-bodies and full facilities are given for them. There are also Marathi schools and all facilities are given to them.

In my view, the main difficulty is about finance. After all, we have tried to, make that maximum possible provision in the plan for education, subject to the priorities now in vogue. Education is an investment (like industry, irrigation or agriculture) and a long-term investment. But this position has not been accepted as yet. Hence we have a poor allocation.

I support the proposal about loans to be given to educational institutions for building construction and even for maintenance. Edu- cational institutions are not in a position to maintain their schools properly. They do riot have enough funds. Moreover, they have to pay loans with a very heavy rate of interest. For construction purposes, they have to play interest at 9 % or even more. I do not know how we will be able to help them. But the rate of interest which the officials are offering is always very high. I do not know how we can lower it. But we have made some provisions so that colleges or the secondary schools could get loans from the banks and government would guarantee such loans.

The other problems cover school feeding, appointment of lady teachers and construction of buildings. It is also necessary to ensure that teachers should live in villages where they are posted.

Education Minister, Maharashtra

At the outset, please allow me to congratulate you for your inspiring inaugural address. I should mention here that I was very pessimistic about the working,of this body. Last year I even suggested its winding up. If this body were to remain without funds and without programmes, it is, I think, better that we wind it up. But, you have made very good suggestions and very important announcements. Perhaps, for the first, time in the history of the Central Government, this advisory Board of Education is making a very concrete and practical approach to the problem of Central-State relationship. I am also happy to note that, for the first time, it has been realised that the important resolutions of the Board should be implemented in right earnest and that, for that purpose, some sort of secretarial establishment is necessary. We have seen that the resolutions passed by this body are not implemented. They are merely conveyed to the State Governments at a very late stage. Even the agenda of the meetings and the notes which

are prepared for the meetings are supplied to the States very late. I hope that all this will now be a thing of the past. I also support what my friend, Shri Malhotra has said. I fully commend his suggestions that the agenda and papers of the Board should be, not only in one language, but least in two languages. If possible, three- language formula should be implemented here also. It is necessary that the agenda supplied to the State Government, should be in English, Hindi and if possible, in a regional language. Then only will the regional languages get importance at the Centre.

I would like to remove a very wrong impression which has prevailed for some time, and which might be strengthened by your observation that in the Maharashtra, Saraswati and Lakshmi live. together. It is not so. The people of Maharastra are most heavily taxed and they have accepted to make this sacrifice for the cause of development. The Zila Parishads in the State have almost doubled their land, revenue and it is because of this that we have been able to increase the size of the plan. Let there be no impression that Maharastra is a rich State. I am not mentioning this to advance my case for larger financial assistance from the Centre. I am sure that whatever is possible for the Centre to give will be distributed equitably between the States. I also accept the viewpoint that, while making Central allocations. the backward States must be given priority. If we talk about socialism and equity, we should be certainly prepared to concede that there are some States which are backward and that the somewhat favoured treatment they need should not be grudged. At the same time it should always be borne in mind that even the advanced States should not suffer.

You have mentioned about the language problem in your inaugural address. By and large, the three-language formula has been accepted in the country. Sometimes an impression is created that Hindi will be thurst on the non-Hindi speaking areas. It is necessary to develop Hindi as a link language. I am not opposed to English Maharashtra has recently published a policy statement on education in which we have kept English as a compulsory subject of study from class V because we feel that English needs to be improved. It is an all India language and even from the world perspective, it is necessary that our students do not suffer from the, handicap of a weak knowledge of English. At the same time, along with English, it is necessary to develop Indian language as the link language. Therefore, I feel that Hindi should not suffer. In fact, more and more assistance should be given for the, development of Hindi.

You have stated that the Central Government will be supporting a teacher's training programme for giving facilities for Hindi-speaking teachers to learn non-Hindi languages or Southern Indian languages. I think it is a very important programme. But let it, not be confined to Hindi speaking teachers only. Let this programme be taken up for non-Hindi speaking teachers for learning other Indian languages also. It is necessary that teachers should learn some other language. I think that this is a two-way traffic. You have given a very practical approach to the problem.

We must also, strive to tackle the problem of-student unrest. It is a very important problem and we should try to find out some solution to it. You have already taken a decision to appoint a Committee. I am sure the Committee will give its considered opinion. But let me make it clear, that this is not really a problem for the students or the student generation. I feel that it is a problem of our generation which. should give a correct lead to the younger generation. This is the crux of the problem. I feel that we should evolve a code of conduct for the elders, for the politicians and more so for the teachers, the community to which you belong and to which I also belong. I feel that it is the teaching community Which has not been able to enthuse the students and which have failed to guide the younger generation on right lines. There are no doubt youth programmes which will be able to enthuse the younger generation. But what is necessary is to provide correct leadership to the younger generation and this lead must necessarily come from the teaching com- munity. The social atmosphere has been spoiled by the political parties. Many disturbances among the students are due to the interference of the political parties. It is necessary that we solve this problem in right earnest. If a code of conduct is to be evolved, it is necessary for the politicians and the political parties. That is one thing which I want to say.

I have all sympathies for teachers and their problems. By and large, I can claim that many of the problems of the teachers at the primary and secondary level in the State of Maharashtra have been more or less

solved. I am not saying that all problems of teachers have been solved. There are many things that we have still to do. But some- times, the teachers and their organisations adopt attitudes and take measures which directly lead to indiscipline among the students. I would therefore say that an effort will have to be made at the State and Central level to bring all the teachers organisations together and instil a sense of responsibility among them. I have always been quoting the example of the National Education Association which has been working very effectively in U.S.A. This Association is the representative body of the teachers in that country. Out of 20 lakhs of teachers, 18 lakhs teachers are members of this Association. It has not merely dealt with the problem of their pay scales and other grievances, but has also tried to deal with the problem of education as a whole. The basic objective of the Association is to improve education in U.S.A. I would suggest that some such, approach will have to be made to the solution of our problem also.

You also referred to the availability of funds and to the allocation for education. It is not as if this problem has come up before this body for the first time. I would like to remind the Board that such an effort was made in the last CABE when your predecessor was in the chair and we deliberately requested him to invite the Deputy Chairman of the Planning Commission to the meeting because we felt that it was not enough to argue our case for more allocation in the State Cabinet only. I entirely agree with the Andhra Pradesh Education Minister that it is not the personal influence of the Education Minister that matters. It is the decision of the Cabinet and the State Government and the general approach of the State Govern- ment to its Plan that counts most. We feel that a very low priority has been given by the Planning Commission to the Social Services and as education has been regarded as a social service, all our claims have been badly hit. Of course, first priority has to be given to Defence. Then comes Agriculture, irrigation and power. Industry and Family Planning come next; and after the demands of all these have been met, Education comes in at the tail end as a poor relation. Un- fortunately, at the time of formulation of these priorities in the Planning Commission, enough consideration has, not been given to the cause of education and therefore what is necessary is to create consciousness in the Planning Commission of which you had the honour to be a member once, The, Prime Minister in her first address to the country, said that education should, receive first priority. But in spite of this, the allocation for education is inadequate. In my opinion. what is necessary is to convince the Prime Minister who is the Chairman of the Planning Commission that education should-be given a higher priority. It is not necessary that we should have meetings with the people at street corners. All that is necessary is to convince the national leadership.

In so far as the State of Maharashtra is concerned I would like to mention for the information of this Board, that Maharashtra Government has recently issued a Statement on Education Policy. We- had published a draft white paper for the consideration of the people in the State of Maharashtra. It was very widely discussed at all levels. It was also discussed in the Legislature, by universities, by secondary and primary school teachers. After great consideration, we have evolved a policy on education. It has very recently been announced and today I have supplied, copies of the policy to all the members here. I will not go into its details. One of its important aspects is the provision of building for schools and colleges. This is an important problem. About 55% of our primary schools are without schools buildings. I think that this is the state of affairs in almost all the States in the country. It is very necessary that we improve this state of affairs. The same is the condition of secondary schools which are more or less managed by private agencies. In some States. secondary education is managed by Government also. College education also is suffering for want of buildings. We have evolved a scheme to finance school and college building programme. The idea of setting up a Finance Corporation at the Central level is a very laudable one and I welcome it. Till such, a corporation comes into existence I would suggest that the financial agencies should be approached for giving assistance to this programme. Banks have been nationalized; but they have not been extending their support and cooperation as yet. I think the Central Government should take up this problem immediately. In my opinion, 60 per cent of the amount required should be given by way of loans by various Banks, Life In- surance Corporation or any other agency. The loans should be given to the local bodies or the Zilla Parishads. The Government should stand guarantee and after the completion of the building, the Government should give a rent grant @ 7 1/2 % of the cost for the repayment of instalments which

should be spread over 10 to 15 years. If this approach is accepted and if the loan is given @ 7 1/2 %, the management will be able to repay the whole amount in 10 to 15 years and thereafter the scheme will be a self-generating one. But the main difficulty is that these financing agencies are not coming forward to render assistance to this scheme. Till some Central Financing Agency is set up, these should be induced to give assistance in this programme.

A reference was made to teacher training. In India, what is really necessary is to train teacher leadership. If some more thinking can be done at the Centre level, this training for teacher leadership would, in my opinion, benefit the whole of the teaching community. We will have to have a training college in each State, and it would be better if one could be established at the national level. I am not opposed to Central Government opening colleges in the States. Central Government is most welcome to open one in Maharashtra and I hope other States will also, agree to the Centre's opening such colleges in their States. These are very helpful and they will also be able to promote national integration. If some kind of training programme is evolved and leadership training institutions for teachers are started, they will be very helpful.

Chief Executive Councillor, Delhi

Some thought should be given to the preparation of the agenda for the meetings of the Central Advisory Board of Education. We have at this meeting, for instance more than 40 items, some of which are suggested by the Government of India some by State Governments and others by Vice-Chancellors and other Members of the Board. In the two days that we have at our disposal, we may not be able to give even five or six minutes for the discussion of each of these items whereas some are so important that even three or four days would not be enough for them. It may be desirable, therefore, to plan the agenda items in a more realistic manner.

The National Policy on Education has stated that the goal of official policy is to increase the investment in education to 6% of the National Income as early as possible. But what are the facts? In 1965-66, we spent 2.9% of our National Income on education. In 1968- 69, this proportion has gone down to 2.7%. At the moment it may be the same or 2.8 %. In other words, we are going backward. Under these, circumstances, how can we reach 6 % of National Income at any time. It is very wrong to make one announcement in the National Policy and to act in exactly the opposite way in practice.

About the allocation to education, I do not see how the State Governments can escape their share of responsibility. In the National Development Council, the Chief Ministers took the line that the Central assistance should be made available to the States in bulk and that they would allocate the funds to different programmes according to local conditions. If education has received a poor allocation in the Plan, a part of the responsibility at least has to be shared by the State Governments.

I find that we are not aware of the Central Plan and its details. It would help the State Governments and Union Territories considerably if a booklet is prepared showing all the schemes included in the Central and Centrally-sponsored sector and giving their details so that the States and Union Territories can take the best benefit out of them and adjust their plans accordingly.

I am very sorry that there is a vacuum for university and college students at present. Formerly the NCC was compulsory. We made NCC voluntary on the understanding that a programme for National Social Service or National Sports Organisation would be developed in such a way that every student would choose either NCC or NSC or NSO. But I now find that the NCC has become voluntary while the NSC or NSO have developed only to a very limited extent. So, an undesirable vacuum has been created and many students of universities and colleges have no programme at all. (At this stage the Chairman intervened to say that allocation for NSC/ NSO was only about Rs. 6 crores and that it was not possible to cover all the students who did not take the NCC under this programme).

We cannot ignore the problem of teachers which is very important. In every State, the teachers are agitating for one reason or another. The recommendations of the Kothari Commission no longer meet their demands and they want something more in view of the increase in prices. The State of Punjab has given good scales of pay and this has led to a similar demand in other States as well. It will be necessary to find out what is possible and practicable in this matter and to implement the agreed programme,

I may also state that we have done a good deal to improve textbooks and in the field of examination reform. I do not know what is being done in these matters in other States. It would be of great help if this information can be made available.

With regard to the Public Schools, the National Policy on Education has stated that students should be admitted to public schools on the basis of merit. This is not possible unless the number of scholarships in these schools is substantially increased. It is also wrong to talk of socialism when such schools for the rich continue to exist. I would also make one point. The State must have some control over teachers in Public Schools or in minority schools. They cannot be left to manage their affairs in a lawless manner.

I do not at all desire to thrust Hindi on anyone but I do not understand why English should be thrust on those who do not want it. This problem needs much closer attention.

Delhi has an Education Plan of Rs. 27 crores. It is possible for us, therefore, to take up schemes of educational development. We are also prepared to introduce scholarships in each block-even 6 to 8 scholarships per block.

(At this point the Board adjourned for lunch and reassembled at 3 P.M. to continue the general discussion).

Education Minister, Orissa

The approach made to the problem of Centre-State relations in the speech of the Union Education Minister is generally welcome. We agree that the Centre should have a promotional role, a role of leadership. This however, cannot be achieved by increasing the Central sector only. We have to develop a leadership independent of the financial power of the Centre. As a matter of fact, the really promotional role of the Centre would be in danger with a larger budget because it might tend to function as an executive agency for functions which the States are in a better position to discharge. The leadership role of the Centre, in my opinion, should consist, firstly, in organising qualitative improvement programmes in education and, secondly, in removing regional imbalances. This would meet with greater acceptance at the State level.